1 00:00:05,390 --> 00:00:02,030 hello everyone this is Martin Willis 2 00:00:08,120 --> 00:00:05,400 with podcast UFO welcome to episode 3 00:00:10,549 --> 00:00:08,130 number 18 with a great guest 4 00:00:12,799 --> 00:00:10,559 Leslie Kane we have all kinds of 5 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:12,809 information on our website and you're 6 00:00:16,189 --> 00:00:15,420 welcome to check it out at podcast UFO 7 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:16,199 com 8 00:00:21,410 --> 00:00:18,359 if you'd like to contact me info at 9 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:21,420 podcast UFO comm it's a great show today 10 00:00:43,110 --> 00:00:41,069 author of UFOs generals pilots and 11 00:00:45,420 --> 00:00:43,120 government officials bill on the record 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:45,430 Leslie Cain on skype how you doing 13 00:00:49,619 --> 00:00:47,530 Leslie doing well Martin how are you 14 00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:49,629 thanks for having me on I'm thrilled 15 00:00:56,310 --> 00:00:53,350 that you're on and you call yourself a 16 00:00:58,770 --> 00:00:56,320 UFO agnostic I like that and it gives 17 00:01:00,299 --> 00:00:58,780 you a great sense of integrity while 18 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:00,309 you're doing your researching and 19 00:01:05,130 --> 00:01:02,769 writing can you tell the listener who 20 00:01:07,109 --> 00:01:05,140 may not know your story how is a 21 00:01:13,590 --> 00:01:07,119 journalist you got involved in the UFO 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:13,600 phenomena so what happened was back in 23 00:01:19,609 --> 00:01:16,690 1999 I was working at a public radio 24 00:01:22,169 --> 00:01:19,619 station in the San Francisco Bay Area 25 00:01:24,510 --> 00:01:22,179 producing and co-hosting a daily 26 00:01:26,279 --> 00:01:24,520 investigative news program there and a 27 00:01:28,639 --> 00:01:26,289 colleague in France sent me this 28 00:01:30,809 --> 00:01:28,649 extraordinary report written by 29 00:01:32,430 --> 00:01:30,819 high-level military people in that 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:32,440 country and it was an English 31 00:01:36,660 --> 00:01:35,170 translation of this 90 page study that 32 00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:36,670 was eventually going to be released in 33 00:01:39,270 --> 00:01:37,990 the States but he gave me kind of an 34 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:39,280 advance copy of it 35 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:41,530 and what it was was a three year study 36 00:01:48,060 --> 00:01:45,250 performed by among the group were four 37 00:01:49,950 --> 00:01:48,070 generals and Admiral the former head of 38 00:01:51,779 --> 00:01:49,960 the National Space Studies Center in 39 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:51,789 France which is the equivalent of NASA 40 00:01:57,499 --> 00:01:54,310 in this country some scientists and 41 00:01:59,969 --> 00:01:57,509 engineers he's very very sophisticated 42 00:02:01,770 --> 00:01:59,979 knowledgeable and high-level people had 43 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:01,780 had focused on this issue for a number 44 00:02:04,980 --> 00:02:03,250 of years and they issued a report 45 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:04,990 because they were concerned about the 46 00:02:09,150 --> 00:02:06,850 national security implications the 47 00:02:11,099 --> 00:02:09,160 defence implications of these things 48 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:11,109 that were being seen by pilots and 49 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:13,090 aviation people around the world and 50 00:02:19,020 --> 00:02:16,570 they studied only the official cases 51 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:19,030 that they in the most official and the 52 00:02:23,330 --> 00:02:21,010 best cases the cases for which we have 53 00:02:26,099 --> 00:02:23,340 so much evidence that you really can't 54 00:02:27,930 --> 00:02:26,109 find a conventional explanation for 55 00:02:31,020 --> 00:02:27,940 anything so at least for the cases they 56 00:02:33,449 --> 00:02:31,030 studied so I received this report and I 57 00:02:35,220 --> 00:02:33,459 was just very very struck by the 58 00:02:37,229 --> 00:02:35,230 conclusion not only the cases presented 59 00:02:42,059 --> 00:02:37,239 but the conclusions of these high-level 60 00:02:44,370 --> 00:02:42,069 people which was that the phenomenon in 61 00:02:45,539 --> 00:02:44,380 the cases they studied which again are 62 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:45,549 the cases with the best evidence 63 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:48,370 officially investigated the phenomenon 64 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:48,650 in 65 00:02:52,569 --> 00:02:50,420 best explanation that they could come up 66 00:02:54,670 --> 00:02:52,579 with for those cases was what they 67 00:02:56,649 --> 00:02:54,680 called the extra-terrestrial hypothesis 68 00:03:00,369 --> 00:02:56,659 and they said this was the most valid 69 00:03:02,170 --> 00:03:00,379 the most likely explanation for these 70 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:02,180 objects that were being seen and I 71 00:03:06,250 --> 00:03:04,010 thought as a journalist then just sort 72 00:03:08,009 --> 00:03:06,260 of looking for a good story I thought 73 00:03:11,140 --> 00:03:08,019 when you have generals and admirals 74 00:03:13,539 --> 00:03:11,150 saying that it's very likely that we are 75 00:03:16,179 --> 00:03:13,549 being visited by extraterrestrial craft 76 00:03:18,220 --> 00:03:16,189 of some sort I thought this was a big 77 00:03:20,289 --> 00:03:18,230 news story I mean imagine if the 78 00:03:21,670 --> 00:03:20,299 equivalent officials in America came out 79 00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:21,680 with a statement like that it would be a 80 00:03:26,259 --> 00:03:24,590 huge thing so I was very struck by the 81 00:03:27,940 --> 00:03:26,269 power of their conclusion and the 82 00:03:29,619 --> 00:03:27,950 writing in this report was also very 83 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:29,629 very strong and powerful and interesting 84 00:03:33,610 --> 00:03:31,730 and that's what got me started I I 85 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:33,620 wanted to look into it based on their 86 00:03:38,289 --> 00:03:35,180 conclusions and I wrote a story for the 87 00:03:40,059 --> 00:03:38,299 Boston Globe based on this French report 88 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:40,069 which is known as the cameto report and 89 00:03:45,009 --> 00:03:42,290 that story came out in the spring of 90 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:45,019 2000 and that's how I got started and 91 00:03:49,179 --> 00:03:46,430 ever since then I've been pretty much 92 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:49,189 primarily focused on this mm-hmm 93 00:03:54,460 --> 00:03:52,910 well you've done some great work and I'd 94 00:03:55,990 --> 00:03:54,470 love to say that I'm finished your book 95 00:03:58,990 --> 00:03:56,000 I'm in the middle of it it's a great 96 00:04:02,559 --> 00:03:59,000 book and I highly recommend our 97 00:04:04,569 --> 00:04:02,569 listeners to check the book out also 98 00:04:08,140 --> 00:04:04,579 there's some videos up on YouTube that 99 00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:08,150 I've seen what's the name of the movie 100 00:04:13,059 --> 00:04:10,430 that's up there you mean that I'm 101 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:13,069 involved with well well there was a you 102 00:04:17,469 --> 00:04:15,049 may be thinking of the one that was 103 00:04:20,710 --> 00:04:17,479 aired on the History Channel last summer 104 00:04:22,510 --> 00:04:20,720 which was called UFOs on the record yes 105 00:04:24,219 --> 00:04:22,520 yeah it was based on my book basically 106 00:04:26,860 --> 00:04:24,229 and I worked as a producer with a 107 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:26,870 independent production company to create 108 00:04:30,370 --> 00:04:28,970 that film and then it was you know it 109 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:30,380 was commissioned by the History Channel 110 00:04:34,450 --> 00:04:32,449 basically uh-huh so that might be the 111 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:34,460 one you're thinking of it is yes so 112 00:04:39,790 --> 00:04:37,010 before we talk more about your book I 113 00:04:43,149 --> 00:04:39,800 have a few other questions for you 114 00:04:46,689 --> 00:04:43,159 basically the facts and evidence point 115 00:04:48,909 --> 00:04:46,699 to something in our skies which as you 116 00:04:52,330 --> 00:04:48,919 mentioned way beyond our technological 117 00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:52,340 capabilities what are what are your 118 00:04:58,390 --> 00:04:54,110 thoughts do you go along with the 119 00:04:59,980 --> 00:04:58,400 hypothesis the hypothesis that they may 120 00:05:00,879 --> 00:04:59,990 be extraterrestrial yeah I mean I 121 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:00,889 definitely think 122 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:02,900 ballot hypothesis I don't think anyone 123 00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:05,090 who studies the evidence can argue with 124 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:05,300 that 125 00:05:10,779 --> 00:05:08,030 again it's an hypothesis though which 126 00:05:13,510 --> 00:05:10,789 means a theory it's not proven 127 00:05:16,629 --> 00:05:13,520 so what we're stuck with is a compelling 128 00:05:19,029 --> 00:05:16,639 body of data that suggests something 129 00:05:22,029 --> 00:05:19,039 that is not man-made and and that is 130 00:05:24,159 --> 00:05:22,039 technological as you said so what do you 131 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:24,169 do with that data and you have to think 132 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:27,110 about well maybe it could be X Y & Z and 133 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:30,310 it seems like you know the leading 134 00:05:34,029 --> 00:05:32,210 hypothesis seems to be the 135 00:05:36,070 --> 00:05:34,039 extra-terrestrial one that this is some 136 00:05:39,429 --> 00:05:36,080 kind of a vehicle from another planet 137 00:05:41,290 --> 00:05:39,439 somewhere there's also possible 138 00:05:42,550 --> 00:05:41,300 hypothesis have been for put forward 139 00:05:44,999 --> 00:05:42,560 that it might be from another dimension 140 00:05:47,769 --> 00:05:45,009 or it could be time travelers I mean 141 00:05:51,129 --> 00:05:47,779 people have a lot of ideas about it and 142 00:05:52,749 --> 00:05:51,139 it's it's possible that every single one 143 00:05:54,249 --> 00:05:52,759 of these I mean it's always the remote 144 00:05:56,050 --> 00:05:54,259 possibility you can't rule it out a 145 00:05:57,790 --> 00:05:56,060 hundred percent that every one of these 146 00:06:00,610 --> 00:05:57,800 cases has some kind of conventional 147 00:06:02,649 --> 00:06:00,620 explanation but that's such a minut 148 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:02,659 chance because the ones that I feature 149 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:04,310 in in my book and some of them are the 150 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:05,930 same ones that were in the French report 151 00:06:10,420 --> 00:06:08,210 have been so thoroughly investigated and 152 00:06:12,969 --> 00:06:10,430 there's so much data involved with these 153 00:06:15,219 --> 00:06:12,979 cases that you really can eliminate all 154 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:15,229 conventional explanations it's possible 155 00:06:19,869 --> 00:06:17,210 to do that in some of these cases and 156 00:06:21,579 --> 00:06:19,879 then you're stuck with the data so yes 157 00:06:24,070 --> 00:06:21,589 obviously I'm going to honor the 158 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:24,080 extra-terrestrial hypothesis as do many 159 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:25,610 of the officials that have written 160 00:06:29,079 --> 00:06:26,990 chapters from my book and have 161 00:06:31,389 --> 00:06:29,089 investigated these including five 162 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:31,399 generals that I've interviewed and have 163 00:06:35,170 --> 00:06:33,289 written for my book they would agree 164 00:06:36,969 --> 00:06:35,180 with that that it's a valid hypothesis 165 00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:36,979 that we have no choice but to consider 166 00:06:42,219 --> 00:06:39,680 it but you know it shakes up all the 167 00:06:44,589 --> 00:06:42,229 paradigms that we know the scientists 168 00:06:47,050 --> 00:06:44,599 don't think it's possible but then again 169 00:06:48,429 --> 00:06:47,060 we're stuck with the data and but when 170 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:48,439 you said earlier that I'm an agnostic 171 00:06:53,709 --> 00:06:50,930 what what I mean what I mean by that is 172 00:06:56,499 --> 00:06:53,719 that I'm agnostic as to what the UFOs 173 00:06:59,529 --> 00:06:56,509 actually are because science has not 174 00:07:01,659 --> 00:06:59,539 been able to prove yet for us what they 175 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:01,669 are are they extraterrestrial are they 176 00:07:06,550 --> 00:07:04,490 time travelers are they something are 177 00:07:09,070 --> 00:07:06,560 some of the cases perhaps something 178 00:07:11,589 --> 00:07:09,080 man-made and highly secret technology I 179 00:07:12,180 --> 00:07:11,599 mean we have to look at the fact that we 180 00:07:13,770 --> 00:07:12,190 really do 181 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:13,780 no and I think one of the problems we 182 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:16,930 have is that many people assume that a 183 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:19,090 UFO is by definition something 184 00:07:24,180 --> 00:07:21,430 extraterrestrial and it's not and that's 185 00:07:25,950 --> 00:07:24,190 a very important distinction that I feel 186 00:07:27,330 --> 00:07:25,960 I make throughout my book and I think is 187 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:27,340 extremely important for people to 188 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:29,410 understand we're dealing with an unknown 189 00:07:33,450 --> 00:07:31,510 physical phenomena but we have we don't 190 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:33,460 know what it is yet that's right 191 00:07:39,030 --> 00:07:36,370 that's right and a lot of people will go 192 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:39,040 to the extreme one way or the other you 193 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:42,370 know absolutely yep now the Mars rover 194 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:45,220 Curiosity has recently landed as we're 195 00:07:50,670 --> 00:07:47,770 recording this podcast and it's sending 196 00:07:53,790 --> 00:07:50,680 back images currently luckily it landed 197 00:07:56,610 --> 00:07:53,800 safely so we're out there exploring 198 00:07:59,040 --> 00:07:56,620 another planet in our solar system which 199 00:08:01,470 --> 00:07:59,050 is very very young compared to other 200 00:08:03,390 --> 00:08:01,480 solar systems out there why do you 201 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:03,400 suppose that it's so difficult for the 202 00:08:07,980 --> 00:08:05,410 scientific community to explore the 203 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:07,990 possibility that we may be visited by 204 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:11,710 civilizations that could be millions of 205 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:14,530 years advanced of us well it's a really 206 00:08:18,210 --> 00:08:16,330 really great question Martin I mean 207 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:18,220 there are some scientists who do 208 00:08:23,370 --> 00:08:20,710 consider that question such as Michio 209 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:23,380 Kaku the famous physicist who talks 210 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:25,960 about it all the time and Brian green 211 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:28,330 also the physicist from Columbia who's 212 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:30,730 done shows for Nova is also sort of open 213 00:08:35,339 --> 00:08:33,250 to all kinds of possibilities that are 214 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:35,349 suggested by the cutting-edge physics 215 00:08:39,390 --> 00:08:37,330 that we are now dealing with in string 216 00:08:41,130 --> 00:08:39,400 theory and all the new ideas that these 217 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:41,140 physicists have about the cosmos 218 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:44,110 certainly they open the door to the 219 00:08:49,260 --> 00:08:47,050 possibility of you know it's advanced 220 00:08:51,810 --> 00:08:49,270 civilizations being able to learn how to 221 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:51,820 travel through vast distances so it 222 00:08:55,310 --> 00:08:53,680 seems logical I agree with you that 223 00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:55,320 seems logical if you're dealing with a 224 00:08:59,460 --> 00:08:57,100 civilization that's a million say a 225 00:09:01,140 --> 00:08:59,470 million years advanced from us they're 226 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:01,150 gonna know how to do the kinds of things 227 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:03,610 that we can't even imagine are possible 228 00:09:09,060 --> 00:09:06,010 so I think a lot of scientists are just 229 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:09,070 sort of they're so wedded to their the 230 00:09:14,130 --> 00:09:11,770 thinking that they they have spent years 231 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:14,140 developing and studying and their their 232 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:16,060 whole careers are tied in with the way 233 00:09:19,610 --> 00:09:17,770 they think and look at the universe and 234 00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:19,620 they're just sort of set in their 235 00:09:23,810 --> 00:09:21,630 I think the other problem is the 236 00:09:26,540 --> 00:09:23,820 ridicule factor is a big problem that 237 00:09:28,310 --> 00:09:26,550 scientists feel they can't even look at 238 00:09:30,310 --> 00:09:28,320 this because it's too risky for their 239 00:09:33,019 --> 00:09:30,320 careers unfortunately because of the 240 00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:33,029 negative attitudes that exist in our 241 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:35,190 culture towards doing so and they're not 242 00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:37,110 gonna get grant money if they start 243 00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:39,270 playing around with the UFOs this is a 244 00:09:43,670 --> 00:09:41,040 big barrier because some of them are 245 00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:43,680 interested on a personal level but on a 246 00:09:47,750 --> 00:09:45,120 professional level they feel it's way 247 00:09:50,150 --> 00:09:47,760 too risky to get involved with it and I 248 00:09:52,670 --> 00:09:50,160 think a third problem is that there 249 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:52,680 isn't enough what they consider to be 250 00:09:56,090 --> 00:09:54,420 hard dated or to work with I mean 251 00:09:58,490 --> 00:09:56,100 there's there's interesting cases but 252 00:10:01,010 --> 00:09:58,500 they don't have some physical material 253 00:10:02,420 --> 00:10:01,020 that they can take into a lab and study 254 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:02,430 which is the way they're used to working 255 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:04,680 on things they have to develop a new 256 00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:07,950 methodology here they have to develop my 257 00:10:14,180 --> 00:10:11,040 theory and what I would suggest if if I 258 00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:14,190 was you know telling the scientists what 259 00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:15,990 to do would be to form an international 260 00:10:22,430 --> 00:10:19,200 coalition and to develop a methodology 261 00:10:24,230 --> 00:10:22,440 by which they could study sightings that 262 00:10:26,150 --> 00:10:24,240 are going on all the time whether it be 263 00:10:27,949 --> 00:10:26,160 setting up a radar stations or new kinds 264 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:27,959 of cameras or whatever they have to kind 265 00:10:32,570 --> 00:10:30,690 of get proactive and find a way to study 266 00:10:34,340 --> 00:10:32,580 the phenomenon that's different because 267 00:10:36,620 --> 00:10:34,350 just looking at the cases that we 268 00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:36,630 already have isn't going to solve the 269 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:38,880 mystery of what they actually are that's 270 00:10:44,329 --> 00:10:41,250 what we need so scientists have to 271 00:10:46,130 --> 00:10:44,339 decide they want to do that and you know 272 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:46,140 and then they can do it I believe that 273 00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:47,790 we have brilliant scientists that can do 274 00:10:51,949 --> 00:10:49,680 whatever they set out to do but they 275 00:10:54,650 --> 00:10:51,959 haven't set out to do it for the reasons 276 00:10:57,110 --> 00:10:54,660 I've stated in you know so we have a big 277 00:10:59,090 --> 00:10:57,120 problem here which is as you point out 278 00:11:01,220 --> 00:10:59,100 that scientists aren't more open to it 279 00:11:03,230 --> 00:11:01,230 they may entertain the possibility that 280 00:11:05,019 --> 00:11:03,240 yeah civil advanced civilizations can do 281 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:05,029 a lot of things we can't imagine but 282 00:11:10,130 --> 00:11:07,770 actually getting down and studying UFOs 283 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:10,140 is a whole other order of magnitude for 284 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:13,890 them I hope we see a day when this 285 00:11:20,030 --> 00:11:16,650 changes and this has really taken 286 00:11:24,019 --> 00:11:20,040 serious and studied it properly because 287 00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:24,029 it would be the greatest answer of the 288 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:26,430 millennia or of all time I believe I 289 00:11:30,410 --> 00:11:28,650 agree I think it's one of the most 290 00:11:33,230 --> 00:11:30,420 interesting and most significant 291 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:33,240 questions face 292 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:34,530 as this you know it's facing 293 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:36,900 civilization here on the planet are we 294 00:11:41,390 --> 00:11:38,850 alone I mean every you know that's a 295 00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:41,400 very very big question and I think if we 296 00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:44,880 found out we were not it could have huge 297 00:11:50,570 --> 00:11:47,640 ramifications for hopefully for the 298 00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:50,580 better in terms of unifying the planet 299 00:11:54,830 --> 00:11:52,260 and giving us a different perspective on 300 00:11:58,370 --> 00:11:54,840 art where we fit in the universe that 301 00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,380 we're not the only species around but we 302 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:00,720 don't know there's all kinds of possible 303 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:02,610 scenarios that it could be dangerous 304 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:04,770 that you know that people have proposed 305 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,870 if they're much more advanced than us of 306 00:12:11,810 --> 00:12:08,880 course they would have complete control 307 00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:11,820 over us so who knows what to make it the 308 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:13,710 whole thing but I think it's important 309 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:15,930 to know the truth regardless of its 310 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:18,150 implications and so when Simon we have 311 00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:20,400 this recurring phenomenon that science 312 00:12:25,070 --> 00:12:23,100 completely ignores we're just delaying 313 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:25,080 the discovery of what it actually is 314 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:27,510 which is inevitable at some point that 315 00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:29,250 we're gonna find out and as far as I see 316 00:12:37,390 --> 00:12:33,870 it you know this conversation leads me 317 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:37,400 to think about the possibility of 318 00:12:44,090 --> 00:12:41,490 government cover-up and that the 319 00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:44,100 government or part a part of the 320 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:46,320 government may know that this already 321 00:12:52,210 --> 00:12:49,050 exists yet billions of dollars are spent 322 00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:52,220 for instance on the rover and other 323 00:13:00,140 --> 00:12:55,940 science exploration the Kepler and 324 00:13:01,430 --> 00:13:00,150 looking for life out there and what if 325 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:01,440 there is a part of the government that 326 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:04,710 already knows there is it's a good 327 00:13:08,930 --> 00:13:06,510 question and I think we don't have the 328 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:08,940 answer as to definitive answer obviously 329 00:13:13,940 --> 00:13:11,730 as to whether that knowledge is there or 330 00:13:16,130 --> 00:13:13,950 not because it's a secret therefore we 331 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:16,140 don't know it if it's there 332 00:13:21,530 --> 00:13:19,530 I think that regardless of though what 333 00:13:23,660 --> 00:13:21,540 we know or don't know I think the the 334 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:23,670 Kepler in the Rover and all the 335 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:25,230 installation we're doing is completely 336 00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:28,770 valid and should continue you can't just 337 00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:30,750 sort of drop that because of this other 338 00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:33,060 thing but the question of whether there 339 00:13:37,850 --> 00:13:35,270 is some kind of a cover-up within a 340 00:13:39,949 --> 00:13:37,860 tight group of people who control this 341 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:39,959 information is one that's really really 342 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:42,490 hard to answer I think a lot of 343 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:44,110 boils down to the question of the 344 00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:46,510 Roswell case and if indeed there was a 345 00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:49,529 an alien craft that crashed in Roswell 346 00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:52,660 then there is a cover-up I mean it's 347 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:55,839 that simple because if that was alien we 348 00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:57,610 know that it was retrieved and we know 349 00:14:03,030 --> 00:13:59,440 that it's somewhere buried within the 350 00:14:05,190 --> 00:14:03,040 government and if that if Roswell was 351 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:05,200 not an alien craft and I think it's an 352 00:14:08,670 --> 00:14:06,610 open question as to how much our 353 00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:08,680 government knows but it's quite possible 354 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:11,980 that there is a secret project I I've 355 00:14:16,199 --> 00:14:14,020 talked to people who I trust who have 356 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:16,209 told me that there is such a project 357 00:14:20,850 --> 00:14:18,250 I've also heard very compelling 358 00:14:23,850 --> 00:14:20,860 arguments from very intelligent 359 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:23,860 investigators that would argue why there 360 00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:27,370 isn't one so and I sort of explored both 361 00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:29,140 of those scenarios in my book in one of 362 00:14:33,870 --> 00:14:32,020 the chapters in my book so I think we're 363 00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:33,880 sort of stuck without knowing much about 364 00:14:38,579 --> 00:14:36,399 it at this point but there's evidence 365 00:14:40,019 --> 00:14:38,589 pointing in in all kinds of different 366 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:40,029 directions in terms of what the 367 00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:41,290 government knows and doesn't know 368 00:14:48,090 --> 00:14:46,000 so the bottom line as far as I see it is 369 00:14:49,530 --> 00:14:48,100 that even if there is this small secret 370 00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:49,540 group that knows something the vast 371 00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,670 majority of government officials don't 372 00:14:56,069 --> 00:14:53,920 know about it I mean you could say just 373 00:14:58,920 --> 00:14:56,079 about all of them don't so the only 374 00:15:00,569 --> 00:14:58,930 choice we have is to proceed as if we 375 00:15:03,150 --> 00:15:00,579 don't have that knowledge because it's 376 00:15:05,699 --> 00:15:03,160 not being provided to us so therefore we 377 00:15:08,250 --> 00:15:05,709 need to proceed along a track assuming 378 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:08,260 that we don't so that so that it can be 379 00:15:12,510 --> 00:15:10,510 discovered and provided for everybody 380 00:15:14,430 --> 00:15:12,520 and it can be done in a public way to 381 00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:14,440 actually make these discoveries that's 382 00:15:17,420 --> 00:15:16,270 that's the way we have to to go because 383 00:15:20,190 --> 00:15:17,430 we don't have access to that information 384 00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:20,200 that's a very very good point I 385 00:15:26,269 --> 00:15:23,760 appreciate you putting that to light a 386 00:15:29,790 --> 00:15:26,279 couple of questions I have about 387 00:15:32,579 --> 00:15:29,800 skeptics do you consider any skeptic out 388 00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:32,589 there that you know of doing any major 389 00:15:38,850 --> 00:15:35,980 research into this evidence that you've 390 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:38,860 gone through well depends how you define 391 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:41,200 major research I don't think most of the 392 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:44,410 skeptics spend time doing the level of 393 00:15:48,780 --> 00:15:46,420 research that the government officials 394 00:15:51,730 --> 00:15:48,790 have done in that I've cited in my book 395 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:51,740 remove written from my book where they 396 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:54,110 thoroughly dug into a case and collect 397 00:15:59,100 --> 00:15:55,690 done all the interviews with witnesses 398 00:16:01,330 --> 00:15:59,110 etc in fact there are many skeptics 399 00:16:02,890 --> 00:16:01,340 debunkers is the word I really like to 400 00:16:04,450 --> 00:16:02,900 use if you I think you're talking more 401 00:16:06,220 --> 00:16:04,460 about debunkers the ones that have not 402 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:06,230 actually have their mind yeah I mean 403 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:07,730 there is a difference between a skeptic 404 00:16:11,890 --> 00:16:09,770 and a debunker and I think skepticism is 405 00:16:13,930 --> 00:16:11,900 healthy and I define what's getting what 406 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:13,940 genuine skepticism really means in my 407 00:16:18,670 --> 00:16:15,910 book and I think we all need to be 408 00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:18,680 circumspect and skeptical and in healthy 409 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:20,480 way but when you come to debunkers who's 410 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:22,610 you know who really just decided that 411 00:16:26,410 --> 00:16:24,410 this can't possibly be and they're gonna 412 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:26,420 provide any answer they can possibly 413 00:16:32,980 --> 00:16:29,420 come up with to debunk various UFO cases 414 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:32,990 I've been told that they don't do 415 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:35,180 interviews with witnesses they will form 416 00:16:39,010 --> 00:16:37,130 an opinion on a case without 417 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:39,020 interviewing one witness this happens 418 00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:41,630 over and over again so you know major 419 00:16:46,330 --> 00:16:44,030 research I think some of them I think my 420 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:46,340 I have great respect for Seth Shostak 421 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:48,980 with SETI boy I think doesn't really 422 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:50,930 know something about the subject and has 423 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:53,690 looked into some of the cases more than 424 00:16:58,810 --> 00:16:56,450 many of the others have anyway so but I 425 00:17:00,640 --> 00:16:58,820 think most of them don't take the time 426 00:17:03,460 --> 00:17:00,650 because they're on a mission to just 427 00:17:06,820 --> 00:17:03,470 come up with whatever explanation they 428 00:17:09,340 --> 00:17:06,830 can to to get rid of a case and that's 429 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:09,350 what they do and but you know what's 430 00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:10,730 interesting though is that as a result 431 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:13,220 of my book I have received many letters 432 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:15,770 emails from skeptics who have been whose 433 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:17,510 minds have been changed as a result of 434 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:19,250 reading the book that's made that's 435 00:17:23,740 --> 00:17:21,050 given me a lot of satisfaction wow 436 00:17:26,829 --> 00:17:23,750 that's that's really nice to hear 437 00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:26,839 I was yeah yes I was going to ask you if 438 00:17:30,850 --> 00:17:29,060 you've had what are some other feedback 439 00:17:33,340 --> 00:17:30,860 from skeptics that you had about your 440 00:17:34,930 --> 00:17:33,350 book well I mean a number of them who 441 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:34,940 are just individual people let's say 442 00:17:38,380 --> 00:17:36,770 from the University or something they're 443 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:38,390 not they're not skeptics that have been 444 00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:40,250 out there publicly but there are people 445 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:41,600 who have written me and said you know 446 00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:43,310 I've never taken this seriously I've 447 00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:45,350 never thought anything of it and when I 448 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:46,820 read your book I've been completely 449 00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:50,510 transformed now because of the book and 450 00:17:53,890 --> 00:17:52,220 of course that satisfied me but I think 451 00:17:55,390 --> 00:17:53,900 one story this might be of interest to 452 00:17:58,030 --> 00:17:55,400 your readers one of the more famous 453 00:17:59,980 --> 00:17:58,040 people that has been affected by the 454 00:18:02,290 --> 00:17:59,990 book and I want to make the point Martin 455 00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:02,300 that this book 50% of this book was 456 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:04,960 actually written by other people then 457 00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:07,210 self which i think is why a lot of what 458 00:18:11,639 --> 00:18:09,669 a lot of its power is that I invited 459 00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,649 these officials these generals pilots 460 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:13,360 and government officials to write their 461 00:18:17,220 --> 00:18:15,130 own chapters from my books so you're 462 00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:17,230 hearing directly from them it's not just 463 00:18:21,779 --> 00:18:19,809 all myself so that's why I feel a little 464 00:18:23,250 --> 00:18:21,789 bit more comfortable talking about the 465 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:23,260 power of the book I'm not just sort of 466 00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,330 trying to promote myself you know but 467 00:18:29,789 --> 00:18:28,000 there are about 15 others that have 468 00:18:31,769 --> 00:18:29,799 contributed to this book along with me 469 00:18:34,169 --> 00:18:31,779 so back to the story of the of the 470 00:18:36,539 --> 00:18:34,179 skeptics Derek Pitts is a fairly fairly 471 00:18:38,159 --> 00:18:36,549 well-known skeptic he's he was the 472 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:38,169 cheese the chief astronomer at the 473 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:40,809 Franklin Institute which is a well-known 474 00:18:48,149 --> 00:18:45,850 Museum in Philadelphia and he used to go 475 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:48,159 on television all the time to bunkin UFO 476 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:51,070 cases he was on MSNBC a lot he was sort 477 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:52,330 of one of the scientists that they 478 00:18:56,669 --> 00:18:53,890 called on for whenever there was a 479 00:18:59,250 --> 00:18:56,679 scientific event he would be called on 480 00:19:01,169 --> 00:18:59,260 to comment and so he was also called on 481 00:19:04,019 --> 00:19:01,179 to comment about UFO events among 482 00:19:06,299 --> 00:19:04,029 everything else and I was so shocked 483 00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,309 when I saw him years ago commenting on 484 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:08,320 the O'Hair incident we can talk about 485 00:19:13,409 --> 00:19:10,480 that later but he was a total debunker 486 00:19:15,450 --> 00:19:13,419 so he is he's example of somebody who 487 00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:15,460 has been absolutely transformed by the 488 00:19:19,710 --> 00:19:17,320 book to the extent that he invited me to 489 00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:19,720 come to the Franklin Institute and give 490 00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:20,740 a talk about it 491 00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:23,080 Wow and I when I was invited by him I 492 00:19:26,730 --> 00:19:24,640 thought oh he said he wanted to have a 493 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:26,740 conversation a public conversation with 494 00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:28,690 me and discuss the book right so I 495 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:30,940 immediately thought oh my god yeah I 496 00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:32,770 thought he was debunker he's gonna want 497 00:19:36,539 --> 00:19:34,630 to get me up there in a stage and debunk 498 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:36,549 everything and have a battle with me and 499 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:39,250 I so I said to him if you want me to 500 00:19:43,919 --> 00:19:42,010 come give this talk are you I only ask 501 00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:43,929 one thing of you and that is that you 502 00:19:48,899 --> 00:19:46,120 promise me you will read the whole book 503 00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:48,909 every page of it before I get there any 504 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:50,799 price said all I ask the people is that 505 00:19:54,029 --> 00:19:52,090 they read it and then it can have any 506 00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:54,039 opinion that they want and he promised 507 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:56,470 he would read it and he did and he was 508 00:20:00,360 --> 00:19:58,690 completely transformed by this book and 509 00:20:03,450 --> 00:20:00,370 he got up on the stage with me and 510 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:03,460 praised the book up the wazoo and kept 511 00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:05,710 asking the question I don't understand 512 00:20:09,899 --> 00:20:07,350 why scientists don't take this seriously 513 00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:09,909 look at what we've got and so he was a 514 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:12,309 man that was just by reading this book 515 00:20:15,930 --> 00:20:13,990 you know was transformed and his 516 00:20:17,289 --> 00:20:15,940 approach to the subject and I think I 517 00:20:18,879 --> 00:20:17,299 admire him 518 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:18,889 reading it because I think a lot of the 519 00:20:23,019 --> 00:20:21,110 issue is with the skeptics that they 520 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:23,029 won't read things like this they just 521 00:20:28,330 --> 00:20:24,970 avoid them and I think it's impossible 522 00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:28,340 for anybody to read this book because of 523 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:30,230 the chapters written by these 524 00:20:34,539 --> 00:20:32,090 authorities from around the world I 525 00:20:36,430 --> 00:20:34,549 don't think people can read this book 526 00:20:38,229 --> 00:20:36,440 anyone can and come away from it and 527 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:38,239 still feel like they can debunk every 528 00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:40,129 single case it's just an impossibility 529 00:20:44,739 --> 00:20:43,039 you can't do it so I think most skeptics 530 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:44,749 won't want to read something like this 531 00:20:50,649 --> 00:20:47,690 and the ones that do are really changed 532 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:50,659 by it as it's being an example he even 533 00:20:54,909 --> 00:20:52,850 wrote a blurb for the paperback edition 534 00:20:57,310 --> 00:20:54,919 which came out you know a year later 535 00:20:59,799 --> 00:20:57,320 after the hardback he wrote a blurb for 536 00:21:01,869 --> 00:20:59,809 the book praising it and is right here 537 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:01,879 on the in the inside cover of my book so 538 00:21:07,450 --> 00:21:04,850 that's that's just an example of one 539 00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:07,460 person who I'm very happy about that has 540 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,230 taken the book seriously and really 541 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:11,840 changed because of it that is really 542 00:21:17,470 --> 00:21:14,809 great I'm really glad to hear that 543 00:21:20,229 --> 00:21:17,480 someone of that stature and I know who 544 00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:20,239 you're talking about as well actually 545 00:21:24,940 --> 00:21:22,100 come around like that that's great 546 00:21:27,580 --> 00:21:24,950 it is really great shows that some 547 00:21:31,239 --> 00:21:27,590 people do have enough mind open enough 548 00:21:32,979 --> 00:21:31,249 to to deal with this absolutely and he I 549 00:21:34,749 --> 00:21:32,989 think he's always had an open mind but I 550 00:21:37,090 --> 00:21:34,759 can tell you when I saw him talking 551 00:21:39,310 --> 00:21:37,100 about O'Hare and that was only in 2007 552 00:21:40,989 --> 00:21:39,320 it was wasn't that long ago before he 553 00:21:43,389 --> 00:21:40,999 read the book maybe four years before 554 00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:43,399 you read it he was just laughing and 555 00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:45,470 accusing the pilots of being drunk I 556 00:21:50,799 --> 00:21:47,600 mean he was absolutely 557 00:21:52,509 --> 00:21:50,809 so debunking so much of a debunker that 558 00:21:54,399 --> 00:21:52,519 obviously hadn't looked into any of the 559 00:21:56,379 --> 00:21:54,409 evidence for this particular event that 560 00:21:58,269 --> 00:21:56,389 it was just shocking to me and I even 561 00:22:00,279 --> 00:21:58,279 kept a record of it because when I wrote 562 00:22:03,070 --> 00:22:00,289 tastes when I wrote a paper for the 563 00:22:06,099 --> 00:22:03,080 International UFO reported it's the 564 00:22:07,749 --> 00:22:06,109 journal from the from the UFO Center 565 00:22:09,639 --> 00:22:07,759 that's what does it call the Center for 566 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:09,649 UFO studies and you know that Hynek 567 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:10,730 organization 568 00:22:15,310 --> 00:22:13,369 well this long piece about them the 569 00:22:17,919 --> 00:22:15,320 O'Hare case which I studied in some 570 00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:17,929 detail and kept it because I wanted to 571 00:22:21,649 --> 00:22:19,080 quote him as an 572 00:22:24,110 --> 00:22:21,659 sample of how these debunkers operate 573 00:22:25,669 --> 00:22:24,120 and there was there at kitsis quo and 574 00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:25,679 then who would have ever thought that 575 00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:28,049 your later he would have invited me to 576 00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:29,700 give a talk and praise my book you know 577 00:22:33,529 --> 00:22:31,260 like he did it I never would have 578 00:22:35,779 --> 00:22:33,539 expected that but it happened so it 579 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:35,789 gives us hope that's right now was he 580 00:22:42,009 --> 00:22:38,100 the person that was claiming that it was 581 00:22:45,019 --> 00:22:42,019 a cloud formation or phenomena weather 582 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:45,029 situation actually that was the FAA I 583 00:22:48,529 --> 00:22:47,130 don't think he ever studied is enough to 584 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:48,539 claim that I mean he just was just 585 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:50,450 totally flippant about it 586 00:22:56,659 --> 00:22:53,970 and know that that was that was the FAA 587 00:22:58,460 --> 00:22:56,669 that got into that and which I think I 588 00:23:01,370 --> 00:22:58,470 don't live very well in my own 589 00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:01,380 investigation put that one to bed yes so 590 00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:03,510 I do want to talk about your book in 591 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:05,700 general but while we're on the O'Hare 592 00:23:13,009 --> 00:23:09,090 case a question that comes to mind on 593 00:23:16,399 --> 00:23:13,019 that it was there anyone that you talked 594 00:23:20,019 --> 00:23:16,409 to off the record there were witnesses 595 00:23:22,490 --> 00:23:20,029 yes and there were witnesses I think 596 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:22,500 well certainly the names were off the 597 00:23:26,450 --> 00:23:24,690 record the what's one thing that's 598 00:23:28,669 --> 00:23:26,460 interesting about that case is that not 599 00:23:30,649 --> 00:23:28,679 one witness was willing to go on the 600 00:23:33,230 --> 00:23:30,659 record with their name and there were 601 00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:33,240 probably 13 14 15 of them that 602 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:34,799 eventually spoke to various 603 00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:37,860 investigators mainly doctor Richard 604 00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:39,990 Haines from NAR Kappa did a thorough 605 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:41,880 study of it but I think that's very 606 00:23:47,060 --> 00:23:44,970 telling that that you have a case of 607 00:23:49,399 --> 00:23:47,070 this that was covered in the national 608 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:49,409 media and was very very significant case 609 00:23:54,649 --> 00:23:51,990 involving an ABA C aviation safety issue 610 00:23:56,060 --> 00:23:54,659 really sure and not one witness was 611 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:56,070 willing to put their name on the record 612 00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:57,570 because they were afraid for their 613 00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:01,200 basically for their jobs and that's just 614 00:24:07,580 --> 00:24:04,860 such a a telling situation because it 615 00:24:09,769 --> 00:24:07,590 shows the problem that we face here in 616 00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:09,779 this country where witnesses are so 617 00:24:13,639 --> 00:24:11,820 afraid to be public about it because of 618 00:24:15,860 --> 00:24:13,649 the repercussions that they face they 619 00:24:19,159 --> 00:24:15,870 should not be facing any repercussions 620 00:24:21,889 --> 00:24:19,169 for reporting what they're seeing over a 621 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:21,899 major airport on at Russia or something 622 00:24:26,509 --> 00:24:24,330 that's dangerous so it's it's just a 623 00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,519 completely irrational problem and it's 624 00:24:30,150 --> 00:24:28,320 not like this in other countries where 625 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:30,160 these things are reported much 626 00:24:33,210 --> 00:24:31,390 more easily without a lot of 627 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:33,220 repercussions so I'm glad you raised 628 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:35,350 that point and yes I did speak to a 629 00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:38,410 couple of witnesses I think that as I 630 00:24:42,540 --> 00:24:40,540 recall they one of them allowed me to 631 00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:42,550 quote him without his name but it was 632 00:24:47,790 --> 00:24:45,550 extremely delicate and I had to get the 633 00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:47,800 quote approved and lots of stuff that he 634 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:50,560 told me I could not quote so there was 635 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:54,010 some off-the-record stuff mainly with 636 00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:55,090 and I think that's true for all the 637 00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:56,710 investigators that talk to the witnesses 638 00:25:00,380 --> 00:24:57,760 they were the ones that were so 639 00:25:04,020 --> 00:25:00,390 concerned about going on the record now 640 00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:04,030 this was just a it was a simple disc 641 00:25:10,140 --> 00:25:08,200 just hoovering over a gate steady for so 642 00:25:11,610 --> 00:25:10,150 many minutes is that right and then all 643 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:11,620 of a sudden it shot straight up 644 00:25:16,590 --> 00:25:13,990 that's exactly right it was a kind of 645 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:16,600 metallic looking disc-shaped object that 646 00:25:21,930 --> 00:25:18,850 was hovering over a specific gate gate 647 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:21,940 c-17 at the United Airlines terminal at 648 00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:24,010 O'Hare Airport it was rush hour just a 649 00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:27,280 normal day the weather was normal slight 650 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:29,920 drizzle but you know nothing an abnormal 651 00:25:35,130 --> 00:25:32,830 going on and it was witnessed by many 652 00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:35,140 aviation people including pilots from 653 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:36,790 the ground just sort of sitting up there 654 00:25:41,550 --> 00:25:38,650 for at least five minutes it might have 655 00:25:44,070 --> 00:25:41,560 been longer and then as you said there 656 00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:44,080 was a cloudbank a thick cloud bank above 657 00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:45,700 where the object was hovering it was 658 00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:49,150 about 15 1,800 feet up suddenly the 659 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:51,580 object just shot straight up literally 660 00:25:56,430 --> 00:25:53,710 straight up through that cloud bank and 661 00:25:58,050 --> 00:25:56,440 cut a very clear hole in it as if 662 00:26:00,930 --> 00:25:58,060 someone had taken a cookie cutter from 663 00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:00,940 above the the cloud bank and just you 664 00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:03,430 know cut this crisp hole in it with a 665 00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:05,440 clear outline and people described being 666 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:07,870 able to see the blue sky through the 667 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:10,060 hole on the other side of the cloud Bank 668 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:12,370 so there's nothing we know of in our 669 00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:14,290 technology that can do that that's the 670 00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:16,270 bottom line this is what was reported 671 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:18,790 and many of the witnesses were concerned 672 00:26:23,220 --> 00:26:21,010 about the aviation safety implications 673 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:23,230 of when you have something hovering over 674 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:24,820 a major airport at rush hour 675 00:26:28,770 --> 00:26:27,010 that doesn't have a transponder that 676 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:28,780 can't be communicated with you don't 677 00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:31,210 know why it's there what it is how long 678 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:33,220 it's gonna stay what it's gonna do next 679 00:26:38,550 --> 00:26:35,710 all these all these very very 680 00:26:39,260 --> 00:26:38,560 significant questions that arise when 681 00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:39,270 something like the 682 00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:41,790 happens and the FAA was not interested 683 00:26:45,850 --> 00:26:43,500 in it they didn't investigate they 684 00:26:49,010 --> 00:26:45,860 weren't they didn't address it they only 685 00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:49,020 provided ridiculous phony explanations 686 00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:50,940 for it when they were forced to and 687 00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:52,740 that's how things that's how these 688 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:54,480 events are handled in this country it's 689 00:26:58,130 --> 00:26:56,610 it's and I think this case is so 690 00:26:59,780 --> 00:26:58,140 important because it illustrates the 691 00:27:02,000 --> 00:26:59,790 problem that we have here so 692 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:02,010 dramatically not only with witnesses 693 00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:03,570 being afraid to talk about it but with 694 00:27:08,030 --> 00:27:05,940 the the non interest and the non 695 00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:08,040 engagement that is that goes on within 696 00:27:12,130 --> 00:27:09,870 our government the fact that we don't 697 00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:12,140 investigate and we don't provide any 698 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:15,240 explanation or even statements to the 699 00:27:18,770 --> 00:27:17,130 witnesses and to the general public who 700 00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:18,780 are very concerned about something like 701 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:21,540 this they don't get any response even a 702 00:27:26,690 --> 00:27:23,850 statement saying we can't explain what 703 00:27:28,790 --> 00:27:26,700 this was that's all we're really asking 704 00:27:32,420 --> 00:27:28,800 for from our government we don't even 705 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:32,430 get that we just get silly explanations 706 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:34,710 that that can be dismissed if you look 707 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:36,690 into the facts of the case which is what 708 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:39,330 I and others did there were to two or 709 00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:40,650 three different explanations that were 710 00:27:46,130 --> 00:27:43,980 provided and none of them made where 711 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:46,140 possibilities were even possibilities 712 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:50,970 for what actually happened so now when 713 00:27:56,990 --> 00:27:54,450 you decided to write this book was there 714 00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:57,000 any case out there that you wanted to 715 00:28:02,120 --> 00:27:58,710 add to this book but you couldn't get 716 00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:02,130 cooperation no that really didn't happen 717 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:04,830 there was one potential contributor who 718 00:28:09,050 --> 00:28:07,530 was a general from Russia who had told 719 00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:09,060 me that he did want to write something 720 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:11,430 for the book but never did for whatever 721 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:14,610 reasons I don't know but terms of actual 722 00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:16,650 cases and really I was very very 723 00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:19,440 fortunate to get the people who I 724 00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:21,030 invited to contribute they were all 725 00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:23,700 willing to do it and I think it's partly 726 00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:25,460 because I had spent many years 727 00:28:30,770 --> 00:28:28,230 developing connections and with these 728 00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:30,780 people so I knew most of them and have 729 00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:33,870 met many of them and so they trusted me 730 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:35,760 enough to be willing to do this and they 731 00:28:39,950 --> 00:28:37,710 worked very hard on the chapters that 732 00:28:43,070 --> 00:28:39,960 they wrote I was extremely grateful for 733 00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:43,080 that and I just think that cheering the 734 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:45,480 you know hearing about something in a 735 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:48,450 detailed chapter in in the in the words 736 00:28:53,779 --> 00:28:50,850 of the actual person involved is so much 737 00:28:55,970 --> 00:28:53,789 more powerful than hearing me tell the 738 00:28:58,039 --> 00:28:55,980 story and quoting somebody which is what 739 00:28:59,450 --> 00:28:58,049 you that's all you can do in a short 740 00:29:01,850 --> 00:28:59,460 article that you might write for a 741 00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,860 magazine or a newspaper which is what 742 00:29:06,169 --> 00:29:03,600 I've done previously and I realize that 743 00:29:08,570 --> 00:29:06,179 it's it's not gonna do the job but these 744 00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:08,580 people we need more detail because the 745 00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:10,710 subject is so complicated and 746 00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,440 controversial and I thought what is 747 00:29:16,820 --> 00:29:15,120 better than asking these people to tell 748 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:16,830 their stories in their own words so 749 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:19,010 that's what that's what the book does 750 00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:22,710 would you mind just going through each 751 00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:25,679 case and just a real quick one or two 752 00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:28,860 line synopsis of the chapters in your 753 00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:31,980 book sure and I won't be able to cover 754 00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:33,809 each case because some some of the 755 00:29:39,019 --> 00:29:36,990 writers including myself include cases 756 00:29:40,730 --> 00:29:39,029 within a broader a bigger chapter so 757 00:29:42,529 --> 00:29:40,740 there's actually a lot a lot of cases 758 00:29:44,299 --> 00:29:42,539 that are touched upon but some of the 759 00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:44,309 major ones where this whole chapters 760 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:46,350 about them are the the Belgian way from 761 00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:49,769 1989 1990 what and that chapter was 762 00:29:52,970 --> 00:29:51,720 written by major-general wilfred de 763 00:29:55,399 --> 00:29:52,980 Brouwer who was the head investigator 764 00:29:57,769 --> 00:29:55,409 for the air force at the time of the 765 00:30:00,590 --> 00:29:57,779 event and dr. Richard Haines from Nara 766 00:30:02,539 --> 00:30:00,600 cap a former NASA senior scientist wrote 767 00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:02,549 a chapter about aviation safety cases 768 00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:04,710 which covers a number of fascinating 769 00:30:09,649 --> 00:30:06,750 cases including the Valenta k-- case 770 00:30:12,169 --> 00:30:09,659 from Australia and then I have captain 771 00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:12,179 Julio Miguel Guerra who is now a pilot 772 00:30:17,690 --> 00:30:15,000 for Portugal the leading airline in 773 00:30:20,810 --> 00:30:17,700 Portugal he he wrote a chapter about an 774 00:30:23,389 --> 00:30:20,820 event he his experience of a 775 00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:23,399 encountering a UFO for over 20 minutes 776 00:30:27,379 --> 00:30:25,350 that kind of did elliptical loops around 777 00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:27,389 his airplane while another plane was 778 00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:30,720 watching that event occurred in the 779 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:33,360 1980s I believe and he's written a 780 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:36,090 chapter about it and then the O'Hare 781 00:30:40,190 --> 00:30:38,490 Airport case I wrote a chapter about 782 00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:40,200 that because I did a lot of work on that 783 00:30:47,870 --> 00:30:44,159 case the English Channel case of 2007 by 784 00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:47,880 captain ray Bowyer he was a pilot for a 785 00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:50,880 small airline and he he witnessed 786 00:30:55,630 --> 00:30:54,000 subjects in two gigantic UFOs in 2007 787 00:30:57,790 --> 00:30:55,640 along with his past 788 00:31:00,400 --> 00:30:57,800 and that bad event was also picked up on 789 00:31:02,230 --> 00:31:00,410 radar so I mean there's many many others 790 00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:02,240 I can go on and on the the famous case 791 00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:05,120 in in Iran written by General Parviz 792 00:31:10,090 --> 00:31:08,270 Jafari in 1976 the dogfight case he 793 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:10,100 wrote about his own experience in that 794 00:31:15,790 --> 00:31:12,890 case and Oscar Santa Maria from Peru 795 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:15,800 also wrote about his experience trying 796 00:31:20,650 --> 00:31:18,110 to shoot down a UFO over an Air Force 797 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:20,660 Base in Peru in 1980 it's fascinating to 798 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:22,850 read that because you're you hearing 799 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:24,650 about from these guys you're hearing not 800 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:26,450 only what actually happened but you get 801 00:31:30,910 --> 00:31:28,490 their reactions to it were they afraid 802 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:30,920 how did they respond when they had these 803 00:31:34,510 --> 00:31:32,750 Close Encounters why did they try to 804 00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:34,520 shoot them down I 805 00:31:39,550 --> 00:31:36,710 my job as a sort of an editor for them 806 00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:39,560 was to to work with them to draw out 807 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:42,380 from them what their emotional responses 808 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:45,170 were as well as the actual story telling 809 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:46,910 the narrative of what actually happened 810 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:48,770 and I found that to be the most 811 00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:50,810 interesting aspect and I knew that that 812 00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:52,100 would be what would be interesting to 813 00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:54,020 the readers is you know the more 814 00:31:58,450 --> 00:31:56,150 personal side of their stories and and 815 00:32:02,140 --> 00:31:58,460 military guys don't normally talk about 816 00:32:04,450 --> 00:32:02,150 those those aspects of a story so I was 817 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:04,460 because I knew these guys I was able to 818 00:32:08,650 --> 00:32:06,530 kind of work work with them and get the 819 00:32:10,690 --> 00:32:08,660 draw out that side of the story which I 820 00:32:12,220 --> 00:32:10,700 think makes them a lot more interesting 821 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:12,230 because they get so personal in their 822 00:32:16,450 --> 00:32:14,330 reactions and then Rendlesham forest 823 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:16,460 case is also included in the book I had 824 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:18,770 pieces both by sergeant James Penniston 825 00:32:24,550 --> 00:32:20,570 and Colonel Charles halt which are 826 00:32:26,020 --> 00:32:24,560 fascinating cases out of Chile cases out 827 00:32:28,380 --> 00:32:26,030 of Brazil that are very compelling 828 00:32:31,870 --> 00:32:28,390 written by a general from that country 829 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:31,880 and john callahan wrote a chapter about 830 00:32:37,570 --> 00:32:35,450 the event over alaska 831 00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:37,580 that's quite well-known at this point in 832 00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:38,960 which he was involved with which has 833 00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:41,120 radar gigantic kind of almond shaped 834 00:32:46,030 --> 00:32:43,910 objects seen by japanese pilots and the 835 00:32:48,130 --> 00:32:46,040 story of Fife Symington is also a very 836 00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:48,140 interesting one and he's written a piece 837 00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:50,830 a short piece for the book about why he 838 00:32:55,900 --> 00:32:53,900 initially ridiculed the subject at a 839 00:32:57,700 --> 00:32:55,910 press conference and and and why he's 840 00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:57,710 changed his position today and what he 841 00:33:01,300 --> 00:32:59,210 thinks should happen in terms of 842 00:33:03,010 --> 00:33:01,310 government policy so those are just some 843 00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:03,020 of the cases nick pope has also written 844 00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:05,830 a chapter about many cases in the UK 845 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:08,799 and the French head of the agency 846 00:33:13,499 --> 00:33:11,110 thereof J pawn for 20 years John Jacques 847 00:33:15,659 --> 00:33:13,509 Velasco has written a very interesting 848 00:33:16,979 --> 00:33:15,669 chapter about some of the cases from 849 00:33:18,869 --> 00:33:16,989 France that are the most compelling 850 00:33:22,649 --> 00:33:18,879 cases that he was directly involved with 851 00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:22,659 so that's just a taste of highlights of 852 00:33:29,729 --> 00:33:27,129 the book yeah it's a great book in your 853 00:33:32,909 --> 00:33:29,739 opinion is there one that stands out as 854 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:32,919 the most compelling case to you boy 855 00:33:37,710 --> 00:33:35,710 that's a hard question to answer I would 856 00:33:40,859 --> 00:33:37,720 say that the Belgian wave I find 857 00:33:42,989 --> 00:33:40,869 extremely compelling because partly 858 00:33:46,349 --> 00:33:42,999 because it happened repeatedly you know 859 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:46,359 most UFO cases occur once these objects 860 00:33:51,239 --> 00:33:48,730 that kept returning to Belgium I find 861 00:33:53,129 --> 00:33:51,249 that so fascinating because they were 862 00:33:55,649 --> 00:33:53,139 the Belgians were able to collect so 863 00:33:58,649 --> 00:33:55,659 much data they have I've been over there 864 00:34:01,649 --> 00:33:58,659 and they have 25 gigantic notebooks full 865 00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:01,659 of hardcopy reports that were filed on 866 00:34:06,749 --> 00:34:04,480 this case drawings descriptions 867 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:06,759 interviews with with witnesses and with 868 00:34:11,970 --> 00:34:09,010 investigators many police officer were 869 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:11,980 involved military people saw the objects 870 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:14,770 and they kept recurring so that the 871 00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:17,649 government actually became proactive the 872 00:34:24,059 --> 00:34:21,129 the Air Force sent up f-16s developed a 873 00:34:26,309 --> 00:34:24,069 whole protocol by which what was needed 874 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:26,319 before they would send up the f-16 875 00:34:29,879 --> 00:34:28,210 certain things were needed to you know 876 00:34:32,339 --> 00:34:29,889 to establish that something was actually 877 00:34:34,829 --> 00:34:32,349 there so they they really got into 878 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:34,839 trying to identify what these objects 879 00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:36,970 weren't because they were invading sort 880 00:34:41,879 --> 00:34:39,790 of you know intruding into protected 881 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:41,889 airspace with impunity and nobody could 882 00:34:45,089 --> 00:34:43,450 do anything about it and so the Air 883 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:45,099 Force of course was concerned about that 884 00:34:49,260 --> 00:34:47,290 so I think it's fascinating I mean that 885 00:34:52,049 --> 00:34:49,270 case I learned a lot about that case in 886 00:34:53,549 --> 00:34:52,059 writing the book and and when I was 887 00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:53,559 working with the production company for 888 00:34:57,359 --> 00:34:55,359 the History Channel piece was able to go 889 00:34:59,250 --> 00:34:57,369 over there and meet some of the people 890 00:35:00,539 --> 00:34:59,260 who I have not met yet and who were 891 00:35:02,819 --> 00:35:00,549 actually involved with some of the 892 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:02,829 police officers and the pilot from the 893 00:35:08,339 --> 00:35:05,530 f-16 who was sent up to take a closer 894 00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:08,349 look at it at one point so extremely 895 00:35:12,420 --> 00:35:10,660 compelling because of the repetition in 896 00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:12,430 that case and the volume of evidence 897 00:35:17,540 --> 00:35:14,800 that's been collected on it and the fact 898 00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:17,550 that general de Brouwer is such a 899 00:35:21,569 --> 00:35:19,150 authority on it 900 00:35:24,780 --> 00:35:21,579 and is willing to speak it out about it 901 00:35:27,059 --> 00:35:24,790 and was so meticulous in his studies of 902 00:35:29,460 --> 00:35:27,069 the case so it's it's really strong one 903 00:35:31,620 --> 00:35:29,470 and I find it extremely interesting but 904 00:35:34,589 --> 00:35:31,630 so we're all a lot of the other cases so 905 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:34,599 it's hard to pick one that's right yes I 906 00:35:38,549 --> 00:35:35,890 agree with it 907 00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:38,559 you mentioned Rendlesham force that's 908 00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:40,750 another one for me that I think is 909 00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:43,390 pretty subtle but I think it's very very 910 00:35:46,859 --> 00:35:45,160 solid I would absolutely agree it has a 911 00:35:49,230 --> 00:35:46,869 lot of physical evidence which is so 912 00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:49,240 important the radiation readings 913 00:35:53,579 --> 00:35:52,000 documented by the mo de and physical 914 00:35:56,430 --> 00:35:53,589 marks on the ground when the craft 915 00:35:59,069 --> 00:35:56,440 landed and many many witnesses choose 916 00:36:01,170 --> 00:35:59,079 and internal halts tape recording of 917 00:36:04,859 --> 00:36:01,180 course we might people would listen to 918 00:36:07,140 --> 00:36:04,869 which involved his immediate real-time 919 00:36:08,609 --> 00:36:07,150 observations along with a whole group of 920 00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:08,619 other people who were seeing the same 921 00:36:14,250 --> 00:36:11,470 things very ordinary things that 922 00:36:16,770 --> 00:36:14,260 happened there yes that's right that's 923 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:16,780 that's an amazing story right there 924 00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:19,210 you mentioned the former Arizona 925 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:22,660 Governor Fife Symington and he came 926 00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:24,450 forward and set the record straight and 927 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:27,430 Larry King had a wonderful series 928 00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:30,490 talking about this seriously and you 929 00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:31,839 would think that would be enough for the 930 00:36:37,380 --> 00:36:34,869 mainstream media to be all over this why 931 00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:37,390 do you suppose the mainstream media is 932 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:39,630 it ridicule why they stay away 933 00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:42,609 well it's interesting Martin because the 934 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:44,200 mainstream media has a very short 935 00:36:49,109 --> 00:36:46,690 attention span I think this is one once 936 00:36:51,270 --> 00:36:49,119 now when Fife Symington originally came 937 00:36:53,339 --> 00:36:51,280 out with his acknowledgement they can 938 00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:53,349 get actually been a witness to that UFO 939 00:36:58,980 --> 00:36:56,049 back in 1997 and I was the person that 940 00:37:00,990 --> 00:36:58,990 broke that story because I had exclusive 941 00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:01,000 access to him I wrote a story about it 942 00:37:05,730 --> 00:37:03,460 for the a small paper in Arizona 943 00:37:07,829 --> 00:37:05,740 well the mainstream media was all over 944 00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:07,839 it I mean they did cover that story they 945 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:09,910 all wanted interviews with him he 946 00:37:12,930 --> 00:37:11,650 wouldn't he would not provide interviews 947 00:37:16,650 --> 00:37:12,940 with a lot of them because he just 948 00:37:19,650 --> 00:37:16,660 didn't want to do this but it was a big 949 00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:19,660 big story and it was covered by CNN but 950 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:21,430 what happens is the mainstream get on 951 00:37:24,350 --> 00:37:22,650 these stories and then 952 00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:24,360 they just forget about them but they 953 00:37:28,940 --> 00:37:26,430 don't pursue they don't follow up and 954 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:28,950 dig deeper and maybe try to look into 955 00:37:33,380 --> 00:37:31,170 other cases that might have happened you 956 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:33,390 know that could be similar or they just 957 00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:35,370 do a one-shot thing and then then there 958 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:37,920 was something else so I think that's the 959 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:40,370 way they work which is what we need are 960 00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:42,570 investigative journalists that will take 961 00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,420 months to dig into a case and then do a 962 00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:47,760 story about it but they didn't do it 963 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:49,980 that way that's a problem yeah then 964 00:37:54,530 --> 00:37:51,570 you're right they're very ephemeral 965 00:37:57,020 --> 00:37:54,540 everything yeah it's right at the moment 966 00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:57,030 or it's old news and they do cover 967 00:38:02,000 --> 00:37:59,280 things so the O'Hair case also was major 968 00:38:04,220 --> 00:38:02,010 media story you know CNN and other other 969 00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:04,230 stations covered it it was a front page 970 00:38:07,970 --> 00:38:05,460 in the Chicago Tribune 971 00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:07,980 got huge number of hits on that web site 972 00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:10,710 but then it's over in a day or two 973 00:38:14,420 --> 00:38:12,060 that's it it's gone 974 00:38:17,690 --> 00:38:14,430 they just don't stay with anything and 975 00:38:19,610 --> 00:38:17,700 that's why I think I play a particular 976 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:19,620 role here and being a journalist to us 977 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:21,570 actually stayed with this topic and 978 00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:23,610 really dug into it for years and years 979 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:25,800 and years I don't know of any other 980 00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:27,570 journalist that's even done it for 981 00:38:30,590 --> 00:38:28,140 months 982 00:38:33,740 --> 00:38:30,600 other researchers have but not 983 00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:33,750 journalists so it's just the way the 984 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:35,910 media operates they're they're assigned 985 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:38,970 a story by their bosses they go out and 986 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:40,650 cover the story for a day or two and 987 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:41,850 it's an end-around they're assigned 988 00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:46,050 something else and that's it well I hope 989 00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:47,520 I'm speaking for a lot of people out 990 00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:49,230 there really appreciate what you're 991 00:38:54,110 --> 00:38:51,300 doing we're just about out of time 992 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:54,120 and another question just one more 993 00:38:57,140 --> 00:38:56,010 question I have for you since you've 994 00:38:59,120 --> 00:38:57,150 written this book have you been 995 00:39:02,540 --> 00:38:59,130 researching any new credible accounts 996 00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:02,550 and if so can you talk about it yeah I 997 00:39:06,740 --> 00:39:04,320 have actually been researching some 998 00:39:08,450 --> 00:39:06,750 cases from the country of Chile which 999 00:39:12,220 --> 00:39:08,460 I've become very interested in I've 1000 00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:12,230 written two stories in last spring on 1001 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:16,350 the el Bosque videos that were taken at 1002 00:39:20,570 --> 00:39:18,690 the place is it's called the el Bosque 1003 00:39:23,150 --> 00:39:20,580 Air Force Base which is in Santiago 1004 00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:23,160 Chile and there were some extraordinary 1005 00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:25,710 videos taken there during an air show in 1006 00:39:30,830 --> 00:39:27,900 which some kind of an object flew by 1007 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:30,840 these airplanes that were flying over 1008 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:31,290 the Bay 1009 00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:36,290 as a part of a ceremony and this case 1010 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:40,110 really intrigued me did two pieces on it 1011 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:41,850 a lot of the debunkers said that they 1012 00:39:47,390 --> 00:39:44,610 thought the image was a bug and so it's 1013 00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:47,400 not completely clear I don't know if it 1014 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:50,160 can be proven what the objects were or 1015 00:39:54,980 --> 00:39:52,890 we can't even determine that much about 1016 00:39:58,340 --> 00:39:54,990 them but I'm about to write another 1017 00:40:00,050 --> 00:39:58,350 story can kind of trap our latest this 1018 00:40:02,030 --> 00:40:00,060 case to rest although we're not going to 1019 00:40:03,740 --> 00:40:02,040 have a definitive answer to the case but 1020 00:40:05,390 --> 00:40:03,750 further studies have been done on it 1021 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:05,400 since I wrote the initial story and I've 1022 00:40:09,890 --> 00:40:08,010 actually been to Chile and have met with 1023 00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:09,900 people from the agency there and I'm 1024 00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:12,960 very interested in not only the cases 1025 00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:14,640 that they have and the one at this one 1026 00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,990 I'm mentioning is just one of many 1027 00:40:20,750 --> 00:40:18,000 really interesting cases but also the 1028 00:40:22,430 --> 00:40:20,760 way they operate in in Chile the 1029 00:40:24,890 --> 00:40:22,440 government agency there has four 1030 00:40:28,190 --> 00:40:24,900 full-time staff people that do nothing 1031 00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,200 but look into these cases and it's very 1032 00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,240 very impressive what they've been able 1033 00:40:34,370 --> 00:40:32,880 to do and the way that the whole country 1034 00:40:37,130 --> 00:40:34,380 that all the official branches the 1035 00:40:39,710 --> 00:40:37,140 military the aviation community the 1036 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:39,720 radar controllers pilots everybody's 1037 00:40:44,690 --> 00:40:41,970 plugged in to the system in which 1038 00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:44,700 reports are filed immediately with this 1039 00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:46,920 agency when anything happens well and 1040 00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:48,780 yeah it's very very impressive and I 1041 00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:51,060 think it serves as a model for the rest 1042 00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:53,670 of the world in terms of how governments 1043 00:40:59,720 --> 00:40:57,510 should handle this issue and and the way 1044 00:41:01,940 --> 00:40:59,730 it can work effectively within a country 1045 00:41:03,610 --> 00:41:01,950 so I'm interested in trying to learn 1046 00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:03,620 more about how they operate and 1047 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:05,790 eventually bringing back some of that 1048 00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:09,090 information to the states and trying to 1049 00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:11,190 use it to influence our own government 1050 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:13,110 as a sort of a model for how things can 1051 00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,170 actually work so that's sort of been a 1052 00:41:21,140 --> 00:41:18,480 focus of mine since in the last six 1053 00:41:23,180 --> 00:41:21,150 months or so has been the situation in 1054 00:41:25,340 --> 00:41:23,190 Chile oh great well you've been 1055 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:25,350 absolutely spectacular thank you so much 1056 00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:28,170 and your website is UFOs on the record 1057 00:41:32,060 --> 00:41:30,480 calm is that right that's right yes and 1058 00:41:33,770 --> 00:41:32,070 there's a link there if you want to find 1059 00:41:35,690 --> 00:41:33,780 a book it's out of a paperback so it's 1060 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:35,700 not expensive and also I'm 1061 00:41:41,359 --> 00:41:37,530 very active on my Facebook pages people 1062 00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:41,369 want to go there and write a comment or 1063 00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:42,839 a question or anything like that that's 1064 00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:45,390 that's great too yes that's actually how 1065 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:47,820 I got in touch with you yes I know 1066 00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:49,650 that's ex I mean I've been a little bit 1067 00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:51,839 off it a little bit more than usual 1068 00:41:55,579 --> 00:41:54,060 because I've been away with family and 1069 00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,589 for the month of July but I'm sort of 1070 00:41:59,660 --> 00:41:57,599 getting back in the groove groove now so 1071 00:42:00,980 --> 00:41:59,670 I hope to hear from people and thanks 1072 00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:00,990 very much Martin for doing the interview 1073 00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:02,640 I really appreciate it